Tue, Mar 14, 2000 page2

• Martin Lee praises Taiwan's path

  Despite the Hong Kong democratic party chairman's hectic schedule of visits to politicians of various colors yesterday, Taipei Times staff reporters William Ide and Catherine Sung caught up with Martin Lee (李洲銘), who spoke on the possibilities of Taiwan's reunification with China, and on Taiwan's engagement with the mainland in the event such negotiations actually take place

  • By William Ide and Catherine Sung / STAFF REPORTER
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  Taipei Times: You mentioned that democracy and the rule of law in Hong Kong have backtracked since the handover; what advice would you dispense to Taiwan's leaders on how to preserve democracy while negotiating with China?

  Martin Lee: I don't think I'm so presumptuous as to give advice. The democracy that you have been developing here in Taiwan should be a good example to the leaders in Beijing that democracy works very well for the Chinese community -- because for too long now I have been hearing people say that somehow democracy is not suitable for us, which I always thought to be an insult because I don't see anything intrinsically different or defective in the Chinese mentality.

  There are very few Asian countries that are not moving towards democracy by holding elections -- there's China, North Korea, Vietnam. So there's no reason at all why we, the Chinese, should not have democracy.

  When I was a member of the drafting committee of [Hong Kong's] Basic Law, one day in Beijing in 1987, Deng Xiaoping (鄧小平) addressed the committee, and told us that democracy is a good thing for China, but that China wasn't ready yet. He said when China's GDP has doubled and then redoubled -- hopefully by the turn of the century -- then that was the proper time for China to have democracy.

  That was in 1987, but by 1997, my economist friends told me that China's economy had doubled and redoubled, so even by Deng Xiaoping's own timetable, China should be pushing forward for democracy.

  And yet I was very saddened, because just a couple of weeks ago in Beijing they went through their party plenary, and there is still no timetable at all for democratic development.

  So I certainly hope that Taiwan will continue with the development of democracy, but I hope Taiwan will also have the rule of law. Hong Kong is leading the way as far as the rule of law is concerned, and Taiwan as far as democracy is concerned; let's have China meet such standards.

  TT: What do you mean by Taiwan not having the rule of law?

  Lee: I think the rule of law here has yet to be perfected. The rule of law is better in Hong Kong than here; we have a very good judicial system although even that has been whittled down recently by Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa (董建華) when he went to Beijing and asked for the reinterpretation of the Basic Law after the government lost its case in the court of final appeal on the right to abode. That started a very bad precedent indeed. It shows the rest of the world is that if you are in litigation with the government and you lose, the final [match] is over, but if you win, don't jump for joy ... because it's only a "semi-final" and they can always take the matter to Beijing.

  TT: What is your impression of the weaknesses of the judicial system in Taiwan?

  Lee: I don't want to be too critical but I think a lot of people would agree with me that the rule of law needs to be improved. By the rule of law, I don't mean rule by law, China has that too. What I mean is that all people are exactly equal before the law and if a top ranking official can do something without being prosecuted, so should the rest of the people and vice versa.

  TT: You said that you hope Taiwan moves towards reunification with China in the future but then you are critical of a `one country, two systems.' approach. From your experience in Hong Kong, why would you still promote reunification?

  Lee: As a Chinese person and citizen, I would like to see my country reunified with Taiwan. But again as a Chinese person, the last thing I would like to see is bloodshed. My party insists that yes, there should be a "one China" policy but we are absolutely opposed to war.

  TT: What is your opinion of the "state-to-state" model of cross-Strait relations, or of Taiwan's position in supporting individual interpretation of the "one-China" policy?

  Lee: I don't want to start a debate now, particularly at this very sensitive stage.

  TT: With the issuance of the white paper by Beijing, how do you think Taiwan should approach negotiations with Beijing?

  Lee: Again, I don't want to give advice on an area I'm not an expert in. I think negotiations between the British and Chinese governments over Hong Kong are different from negotiations between Taiwan and the mainland, which hopefully, can be started soon.

  When the British government negotiated with Beijing, they didn't consult the Hong Kong people and China absolutely refused to allow that to happen, saying that would be a three-legged stool. The Hong Kong people were left out and were presented with a fait accompli after they [China and Britain] reached an agreement.

  I don't think this can work for Taiwan because this is such a democratic place. I can't see that any government -- whoever wins the election -- would dare to do that ... and reach an agreement with Beijing without knowing how the people here will receive it.

  And because of that, I believe China has to show the people here that it wants to go forward, like the rest of the world, towards democracy and the rule of law. Otherwise I just can't see why people here would be interested.
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