Question: What significance do you think the Freedom House rating of Taiwan as a free nation has for other Asia-Pacific nations or the international community?
Mark Lagon: I think it is very important, especially since Taiwan is so unfairly denied its presence in the international community because it is not treated like an Asian state. It is a nation and it is a democratic nation.
Taiwan really is a model. It is relevant to China, proving that Chinese society can have a flourishing democracy that can transition from an authoritarian system, can have rotations between leaders and can produce a female head of state.
Photo: Chien Jung-fong, Taipei Times
However, I think it is too narrow an interpretation to say that Taiwan is only a model for China. Taiwan is a model for all East Asia. When you look at Thailand, its bitter battles and suspicion between the parties, and the reaching in of military rule. Taiwan has set a really good example.
Freedom House has a small office in Myanmar. Myanmar is moving in the direction of democracy. Yet, it has terrible conflicts between religious groups and brutal discrimination against the Rohingya Muslims.
There is much to be learned from Taiwan, so it is a model for all of East Asia. The Freedom House will be interested in working to share the best practices of Taiwan elsewhere.
Question: Freedom House reports point out some risks to Taiwan’s democracy, such as businesspeople with ties with China who are also the owners of local media. What is your view on this?
Lagon: We are particularly concerned as an organization that over time has looked at media freedom. We actually have a dedicated separate report on freedom of the press that we have put out for 35 years.
It is not only censorship in some countries that is a threat to media freedom, but sometimes ownership structures. Just as you have seen with the South China Morning Post [Hong Kong’s biggest English-language newspaper] coming under ownership by People’s Republic of China (PRC) holders. We are also concerned about media entities in Taiwan falling under the influence of owners from the PRC.
There are other risks that I will speak of broadly. The integration of the two economies is good for Taiwan’s prosperity, but may compromise its autonomy at some point. That is something I personally worry about.
[Russian leader Vladimir Ilyich] Lenin once said: “The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.”
I do worry that the integration with China’s economy will be a point of leverage against Taiwan. Also, I think it is probably less of an economic benefit to Taiwan, increasingly having learned from Taiwanese businesses which are much more innovative because of the country’s openness.
Question: Taiwan is often compared with Hong Kong because of their politically delicate relations with China. In Freedom House reports, Hong Kong is merely rated as being “partly free” and you also noted a large drop in its press freedom last year. In light of the recent kidnappings of Hong Kong publishers and booksellers specializing in publications critical of China and President Ma Ying-jeou’s (馬英九) perceived China-leaning policy, what suggestions would you give to president-elect Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) to prevent Taiwan from becoming “Hong Kong-ized?”
Lagon: First of all, reject the idea of “one country, two systems” because apparently it does not work. Watch out for cases of leverage that are used, particularly through economic relationships, but I think it is unlikely that the president-elect will be strong and try to fight accommodating Beijing.
The problem with what we have seen in Hong Kong is instructive. There are people who would like to have a friendly economic relationship with Beijing. There is a pattern of self-censorship, and then there has been more and more brazen activities by the Beijing authority in Hong Kong. I do not think you are likely to see those in Taiwan.
The bookseller incident suggests that if you do not fight for the maintenance of civil liberties, then China will become more and more emboldened. The idea that we go seize people outside in Hong Kong territory for their selling dissident literature shows that China’s leadership does not think it is going to be held to account.
I have very high hopes for Tsai that there will not be any big rupture in the foreign policy of Taiwan. However, the “looking at China in rose-colored glasses” that one has seen from President Ma will not be quite so pronounced.
Question: Taiwan’s freedom rating has dropped to 1.5 from 1 in 2006. What recommendations would you give Tsai if she wants to bring the rating back to 1?
Lagon: I think that accountability of institutions is important. When there have been cozy relationships between state, party and business, that is a temptation for corruption. Therefore, it is important that the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) not follow the patterns of the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) several years ago. I think going in the direction of disentangling party, state and business will be important.
I have met both of the major parties. I think a healthy transition would be one in which — now that the Executive branch and the Legislative Yuan are both under the control of the DPP — these parties learn to work with each other.
I think that would allow the DPP to pursue its agenda. There have been voices for inclusion of more voices in the political process. There is an inclusion of that agenda by the DPP both in politics and economic opportunity. Hopefully, the KMT will be a loyal opposition, helping to increase that voice for more people.
Question: Taiwan is hosting the first Asia Pacific Religious Freedom Forum this week, which is a rare opportunity to bring together leaders of different religions from around the world. However, as of Tuesday, there were still many attendees who were not able to secure a visa to Taiwan. What are your thoughts on this situation?
Lagon: I am very disturbed by this. Two friends of mine are also unable to come. One is [World Uyghur Congress president] Rebiya Kadeer, who is the leader of the Uighur Muslims, and the prime minister of the exiled community of Tibetans, Lobsang Sangay, who spoke at Freedom House last week. Both of them did not receive a visa and that is a shame.
One might interpret that the Ma administration does not want to antagonize the frail enemy across the Strait, but that is unfortunate. What Taiwan has to offer is a place where dialogues happen openly.
The duly elected prime minister of the Tibetan exile community should be part of the discussion here. It is important that Buddhists, Christians and Muslims come here and talk. People attending the conference does not mean they have to agree with everything others say or represent. That is the whole idea of a dialogue about pluralism.
I do not know exactly what the processes are. Is it a bureaucratic hold-up or is it actually [that the Ma administration] is trying to accommodate Beijing? My view is that it is a blemish. It is a wonderful achievement for Taiwan, hosting this kind of conference.
The interview was conducted by staff reporters Su Yong-yao, Stacy Hsu and Chen Yu-hsuan
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