Taipei Times: What are the EU’s objectives for Cancun?
Lefevere: There has been a lot of talk about Copenhagen not delivering on a new big international agreement. Since Copenhagen, there has been a real desire for countries to start implementing mitigation pledges. It’s important to use the Cancun meeting to pick up on that desire to act and provide a framework to facilitate those actions.
That means we would like to see a range of concrete decisions on where we want to go on mitigation, what we want to do on reduction of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions and on climate adaptation, as well as to provide a framing for an international market mechanism, following up on discussions we have on financing and tackling deforestation, particularly Monitoring, Reporting and Verification, which is at the core of the system that we are looking to develop.
TT: The EU is close to achieving its target for the Kyoto compliance period. How important is the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS), one of the key policies introduced in 2005 by the EU to help it get on track to deliver on its Kyoto Protocol commitments for reducing GHG emissions from 2008 to 2012, in helping you ensure delivery and giving you confidence of achieving the more ambitious goal — to reduce emissions by 20 percent below 1990 levels by 2020 and to have a reduction of 80 to 95 percent by 2050?
Lefevere: Our trading system basically covers 40 percent of our GHG emissions and 45 percent of our carbon dioxide emissions. It is the basis of a major law addressing emissions from large industrial installations in the EU. By setting a concrete cap on emissions from those sources, it guarantees delivery.
We know the sectors are going to comply, so it’s a crucial instrument. But it’s not the only one. We have a range of instruments in place. Even now, we are still working on expanding the ETS. The instrument gives us 100 percent confidence on what we can deliver.
TT: In the experience of the EU, what are the advantages of emissions trading schemes?
Lefevere: The biggest advantage is flexibility, a major advantage over a taxation system. In a taxation system, you have a guaranteed price of CO2, but you have very little options to actually avoid paying that price. So you basically stick to the system. Under an emission system, you can look at emission reduction opportunities in overseas branches and in other elements of your company. You can cooperate with or without the administration nationally.
Speaking in favor of emission trading systems, its flexibility for companies and ability for companies to make choices themselves is the guarantee of an environmental outcome — where do we want to go with this, how many tonnes can be reduced. Emission trading gives more certainty in that respect. You give to industries the ability to identify where they want, and how they want, to make reductions, there is much more freedom from government interference than with taxation.
TT: How did the government respond to a trading system? In Taiwan, a draft bill to set up such a system has been stalled for years because of concerns over its impact on industries.
Lefevere: My understanding is that the decision on a trading scheme or taxation has not been taken yet.
What I find tremendously encouraging is there is so much work and discussion ongoing, but we did not get much clarity in our discussions here on which instrument people will be looking at. I think the biggest obstacle is actually taking the hard decision to implement the pledge that Taiwan has made under the Copenhagen Accord.
I was impressed by the detailed knowledge of the EU ETS, both on the side of industry and on the side of some of your government departments. I think what’s needed now is a tough political decision on where you want to go.
Taiwan has put a pledge on the table. It’s time to see an approach proposed to deliver the pledge and to see some clarity on that. We understand that Taiwan is very keen to be seen as a serious global player and that’s why it put the pledge on the table. That’s why we continue to be very keen to engage with Taiwan on this and other issues.
Those are difficult decisions to make. They were difficult decision taken in Europe. But if you put the target there and want to steer your economy to a low-carbon, more green economy, those are decisions you take sooner rather than later. In a competitive region like this, [Taiwan] is a country that cannot afford to lose out in the green race.
TT: Do you think the obstacle to promoting emissions trading mainly comes from businesses or government?
Lefevere: It’s very hard for me to judge. From the very limited discussions, there is a fear among the key sectors of industry in Taiwan that if we don’t design it well, there might be implications for competitiveness. It’s exactly the same discussions that we had in the EU with our businesses. What’s essential is that in dialogues between government, business and legislators, you raise those concerns and don’t give up on the ambition.
It’s up to the government and the legislature to find its ways to deliver the pledge. The European experience shows that it can be done. There is a compelling public need to move on this issue. It is not an issue of, “Are we going to act on climate, yes or no?” It’s an issue of how we are going to do this in a way that addresses the concerns sufficiently, but doesn’t undermine our ambitions.
TT: Isn’t there a conflict between environmental protection and -economic development?
Lefevere: I don’t see environmental and economic concerns in conflict. I actually don’t see the climate as an environmental issue either. Climate is much bigger than an environmental issue alone. What we have seen in Europe is that we have got a fundamental shift in the character of debate. It’s not that climate is an environmental issue. It’s not a choice between addressing climate and wrecking our economy or developing our economy. We are all beyond that.
Climate change is dramatically important, but it’s not only about that. It’s about competitiveness, about energy security. A windmill brings many more jobs to the EU than a barrel of oil does. If you have energy security, you have competitiveness. And on top of all of that, if we don’t start acting now, future generations will receive the bills.
There will be winners and losers in the short term. But certainly from the EU perspective, we are convinced that the losers are going to be the ones that fail to move and take decisions seriously.
If you can supply yourself with energy and become independent, and develop industries that have the technology to do so, you have a win-win scenario. It’s a realization that is really taking place in Europe. I have seen it absolutely in [South] Korea. [South] Korea recently announced an investment of US$36 billion between now and 2015 in renewable energy. That’s big. I also see it in mainland China. The Chinese government is investing massively in terms of subsidies in solar power. China used all--electric buses as transportation during the UN climate conference. I have never seen an electric bus before, and it has them up and running. People use electric scooters to go to work. I don’t see those in Europe. I don’t see them here. You use fuels that cause air pollution. All of these are compelling reasons to start moving.
TT: What do you think of the Taiwanese government considering resorting to nuclear power to combat climate change? Does the EU also favor nuclear power as an energy solution?
Lefevere: There is not a single silver bullet to solve the energy issue. If a country thinks that it can use nuclear power safely, that is its sovereign choice to choose that. But I think you should ask yourself a question: Does nuclear power solve my energy security issue, when it still depends on raw materials that need to be imported?
Depending only on nuclear power for energy is a risky scenario. And again there is a competitiveness issue there. Nuclear power will not be a solution for all. What we want to be is in the wind sector, in the solar energy sector and to supply those technologies throughout the world.
TT: With the EU’s plan to expand its ETS, it is looking to bilaterally link up its ETS with similar systems in other countries. If Taiwan has an emissions trading system in place, will it be linked up to the EU ETS?
Lefevere: We have always said that we are interested in building a global carbon market. We have 27 member states now. The EU ETS has been expanded to include three European countries (Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) and is looking to expand to Switzerland. We have formal discussions with countries around the world on where they stand on their domestic emission trading systems. We are very interested in looking for opportunities to further expand our emission trading through linking with similar systems in other countries and regions.
What we have been very keen on seeing here is a robust trading system in Taiwan. When that is in place, we will be very interested in exploring ways in which we can bring this together with the EU ETS. It depends on what it is going to look like. During our visit here, we have seen that there is a lot of interest in doing this, but we’ve seen very little in terms of what the concrete design is. I think all of these issues are still under discussion.
TT: Will China’s position on this be a concern for the EU when deciding whether to link its ETS with Taiwan, if Taiwan has one?
Lefevere: I think our first concern is to see something robust here in Taiwan and look at different ways in which we can provide links. I think there are a million different ways that you can do those links, either formally or informally. What we need to look at is if the Taiwanese system is something that we think is worth linking up to. We are always happy to look at very pragmatic solutions to try and see how we can make things work.
TT: Taiwan has offered a -commitment to the target of at least a 30 percent reduction based on Business as Usual (BAU) of the total GHG emission volume by 2020. Do you think Taiwan can achieve that goal if it continues to be denied access to international reduction mechanisms?
Lefevere: We only got detailed information on exactly what Taiwan wants to do [on Wednesday.] Honestly, I can’t really give an assessment as to whether or not it is very ambitious. We haven’t done our analysis on this. We were slightly surprised to see that Taiwan put in 30 percent below the BAU level, because that’s what was asked for from developing countries. An economy like Taiwan, we expect it to be taking on the type of commitment that developed countries are taking on. We have given the same message to our colleagues in [South] Korea, which has a similar target.
If you look at where Taiwan is in terms of GDP, there is a lot of scope for being for more aggressive and being more proactive and putting a very ambitious and robust target on the table. Without a thorough assessment of how the emission is, this 30 percent target I think is very hard. You are going to need access to a carbon market. If you want to have access to international mechanisms, there are many ways that can help you get the access without being a full party to the UNFCCC or the schemes under the Kyoto Protocol. There are many ways things can be done.
TT: The Taiwanese government has proposed to participate in meetings and activities of the UNFCCC as an observer since last year. Will the European Commission support the bid?
Lefevere: We understand that the convention basically allows for observers and observer states to belong to specific categories of participant groups, regions, etc. We will be very interested in seeing and learning more about what exactly Taiwan wants and how it wants to take this forward. There is a lot to be gained internationally from making sure all major economies in the world are engaged in international discussion on climate. And we are certainly keen to strengthen Taiwan’s participation in those discussions. It’s about how we can do this in a very pragmatic way.
A group of Taiwanese-American and Tibetan-American students at Harvard University on Saturday disrupted Chinese Ambassador to the US Xie Feng’s (謝鋒) speech at the school, accusing him of being responsible for numerous human rights violations. Four students — two Taiwanese Americans and two from Tibet — held up banners inside a conference hall where Xie was delivering a speech at the opening ceremony of the Harvard Kennedy School China Conference 2024. In a video clip provided by the Coalition of Students Resisting the CCP (Chinese Communist Party), Taiwanese-American Cosette Wu (吳亭樺) and Tibetan-American Tsering Yangchen are seen holding banners that together read:
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