Taipei Times: Due to pressure from China, Switzerland has been changing the nationality designation on residence permits issued to Taiwanese from "Taiwan" to "Chinese Taipei." As a member of the Swiss parliament, how do you see this kind of intervention into your country's internal affairs by China?
Andreas Gross: First of all, I have to say that I was absolutely not aware [of the situation.] In the Swiss parliament, nobody was informed of this. I only saw it in a newspaper when I was on the plane here.
PHOTO:GEORGE TSORNG, TAIPEI TIMES
I will ask the government why they have done this and I will show them that I am not satisfied. I don't agree with this change. If they don't take back this change, I will make a motion in December in the next session to officially discuss this in the parliament and try to get the majority of the parliament to change that.
I don't accept this discrimination and I am sure the Swiss people have a great sensitivity when big nations try to stress and play power against small nations.
I am sure, if you explain it well, the Swiss people would feel sorry for a small country like Taiwan, which is [actually] not a small country. It's three times bigger than Switzerland.
Switzerland has sometimes suffered the arrogance of big countries like Germany, France or the US. They [the Swiss people] will feel close to Taiwan when it comes to the relations between China and Taiwan.
TT: The European parliament is supportive of Taiwan's bid to join the World Health Organization (WHO). Does the Council of Europe stand in line with the European parliament in dealing with Taiwan's efforts to enter these international organizations?
Gross: That has never been discussed in the Council of Europe. The European Union today has 15 members and next year 25. The Council of Europe has 45 members. Russia is also a member of the Council of Europe and so are all the former Soviet Union states.
I could ask the minister next January when we will have another session. It may well be that the Council of Europe has quite a similar position to that of the European parliament.
The Council of Europe and the European parliament are totally different organizations. Their only similarity is that all members of the European parliament are also members of the Council of Europe.
But there is a big difference in the character of the organizations. The European Union is a transnational organization. It has it own sovereignty. It makes its own laws.
The Council of Europe is just an international cooperative. We can only suggest things to the national parliaments. But the European Union makes decisions that are binding for those national parliaments.
TT: Do you see any opportunities for cooperation between Taiwan and the Council of Europe? Are there any concrete actions Taiwan may take to boost bilateral relations?
Gross: That's absolutely up to Taiwan. Japan, for instance, is an observer in the Council of Europe, as are Mexico, Israel and the US, which is observer in the council's executive.
It's up to Taiwan if it wants to have observer status similar to Japan's in the Council of Europe's parliamentary assembly. I don't think the Council of Europe would refuse such a wish when it has accepted a similar wish from Japan.
TT: Switzerland is one of the most vibrant democracies in the world and it holds a lot of referendums. In Taiwan, downsizing the legislature might be an issue that will be put to a referendum. How do you see such a referendum where the interests of people's representatives may clash with the interests of the people themselves?
Gross: It's a big error when parliamentarians think that when people have power, they take away power from parliamentarians. The point is that when the people are powerful, the parliament is also powerful against the government.
When you democratize a country, the people win and the parliament also wins. The government is also not worse off, but perhaps the bureaucrats are losing out.
The real points are the bureaucratic structure and the economy. We need to have a democratic society, in the sense that the economy has to follow the will of the people, not that the political side has to follow the economic interest.
Politics has to defend the interests of all and also the interests of the poor people. In this sense, representative democracy actually becomes more representative when it includes direct democracy, because when the politician or the parliamentarian knows better what the citizens want, he can do a better job.
Often parliamentarians do not really take the citizens' position into account because they don't know the citizens' position.
The difference between opinion polls and direct democracy is that an opinion poll is just an instant picture.
Direct democracy is a learning process. In a direct democracy you can interact, learn and change your points of view. That's why it is much better than even a good polling system.
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